President to make statement on autos

Me too, a loan without real restructing is a waste of money

This is what the Congress has been talking about for quite awhile.

Hope this administration hasn't waited too long on this.  They're

either knee jerking decisions or taking forever and always doing

the wrong one at the wrong time.

He wants to talk? Why not? What is one more screw up in that long list.

WOW...at least 2% ($17.4B) of the original $700 Billion will have some degree of accountability.

Anyone impressed?

I agree with you Mark.  Wonder why the President and goverment couldn't think of this accountablility when they passed out these monies to the financial sector.  They'll never admitte it, but maybe this should of been done then. 

As a long standing Republican I am disappointed that Bush has temporarily bailed out two of the big 3.  He should have forced bankruptcy.  We know the idiot B.H.O. will do what ever the union wants when he gets in, the American people are getting ready to take it up the back side come 20 Jan 2009 when the Dems give the auto industry and the UAW about 175 billion dollars....

The best thing the American people can do now is buy non-union cars made in the south.  Lets show the Congress who runs this economy.

Wonder why the President and goverment couldn't think of this accountablility when they passed out these monies to the financial sector.

Because bankers run the country and forced it through congress for fear the world would collapse...

2 Years ago bankers pushed a bill through congress making it difficult if not impossible for the average person to get out of debt through bankruptcy, even IF it is medical and not credit debt.

Fast forward to now where those same banks can go to Congress and get Billions so that they can continue to harass Americans in debt, call them, and demand they "pay their bills

So the banks pushed laws that people cannot get bailed out, but they can TAX those SAME people and use THEIR money to bailout these banks...

It's disgusting...

The best thing the American people can do now is buy non-union cars made in the south.  Lets show the Congress who runs this economy.

Japan?

Amen.  The World Bank is our government's Lord and Master.

Wonder why the President and goverment couldn't think of this accountablility when they passed out these monies to the financial sector. They'll never admitte it, but maybe this should of been done then.

Is there any reason they can't ask for accountability now?

I'm also curious about Paulsen now wanting congress to release the other $350billion left from the original bailout money. Is this auto loan money tied to the release of that? The article didn't make that very clear, but why even throw in that paragraph if it's not? I have not listened to the statement Bush gave, which might have answered this question.  

While I believe we have to extend the loan to the auto industry, I don't think congress should release the last half of the financial money. We did not accomplish anything with the first $350billion, nor the additional trillions in guaranteed backing. There was no oversight to that money, and I don't expect that will change with the final portion either. The mistrust does run deep.

Will we even make it to Jan. 20th, much less beyond?

I'd like 13 Billion and three months to figure out how to restructure my life.

(I might start by disappearing into Sydney or Rome for the rest of my life...does that count?)

so far only about half of that $700 billion, including this 17 billion to automakers, has even been allocated anywhere (that's still a hell of a lot).
As long standing republican and taxpayer, I feel we were had by Bush and dem congressional leaders on the $700 billion bailout. Not sure what was up with that. I think bush got drunk with pelosi and reid and decided they shoudl try to spend as much as they could last 5-6 months of his presidency. They told us it had to be done so quickly to solve financial crisis. Now half the money still sitting in kind of escrow acct.
Obama already saying we need another stimulus package of anywhere from 600 million to a trillion dollars. Hopefully he's including the $350 billion already in pot, but probably not.

Well,... I just  want  to  know why nobody has directed the Blame of this American  Crisis on the Real persons  responsible? Who? you say?...  George W. Bush... a.k.a. (Commander In Chief)...  The same one who is supposed  to watch  out  for  us, & Not allow his RICH banker Buddies to RAPE  this Country & All Americans... And Then give Them  700 BILLION $ Bail-out without anyone asking...How?  or Who ? And don't you think The Automakers are in trouble because Americans can't get a car loan, because the Banks are not releasing money to be loaned, when in fact it is their fault we are in this mess ...in the first place.  And why The Senate (Rep.)  Beat up on the CEO's for flying in private jets, while in the meantime... The Bankers are Living it up  at Swank Resorts... Does anyone NOT see  this???  George took care of  his  Rich  Buddies,..  while  in  the  same  breath... TRYING TO BUST The U.A.W  The Same U.A.W. workers who have paid their taxes.  That boils down to us Paying To Get SCREWED...  a.k.a.   (Politically Forced Prostitution).  So,... don't HURT yourself there... George... when you  give The Automakers  the puny 14 billion  compared to the 700 BILLION $  Party  for  your  Butt  Buddies.  I know  it  hurts  you to HAVE to give  us poor  Americans....  anything.    Goodbye.... &  Good  Riddence, You can dodge a Shoe, but  you can't dodge the accountability

If you remember, Darrell, $350 BILLION of that money was to be used at the President's discretion. Hopefully, he won't take it with him when he goes, soon. And Obama said $2.5Billion for his plans to get economy started back on track. But He is the first President in a lot of yrs. that has even indicated that he cared about the plight of the REAL American people.

Hippie, gimme a break. The auto manufacturers are in trouble because:

1. They have ludicrous union contracts

2. They lack the foresight to build vehicles designed for the future relying instead on copious supply of cheap oil

Apparently you haven't been shopping for a car for quite a while. Zero percent financing, rebates, employee discount pricing have all been a part of their offerings for years. Anyone who can AFFORD a vehicle can get a loan. Remember people who bought crap they couldn't afford is what sent the housing market plummeting.

Everyone who is going to go out and buy a car from one of these companies in the next three months to keep them in business raise their hand....or make a post!!!!  This is crazy!!!  We are just throwing money down a deep dark hole, never to be seen again.  The only way these companies are going to make it is if consumers have confidence in them and buy their vehicles. The government says that people won't buy from the big 3 if they file for bankruptcy, but what is happening is probably worse because people are pissed off for them getting bailed out and will just say screw them!!!  That is because people won't buy from a company they know is having terrible financial problems and had to get bailed out to stay in business for the next couple months.  It is a vicious circle and it will be difficult to correct.  I also do not like that the government could now be "part owners" in the car industry. 

Storm AZ what I gathered from the article and from what I've been hearing is that this money was the last of the first bailout money. That is why they are asking for the next disbursement becaue they are using the remaining balance from the 1st dispursement for this Auto Bailout.

To bevos, Not sure where that 2.5 billion dollar comment from you came about obama. They just said yesterday that his advisors had said anywhere from $600 billion to $1 trillion stimulus package needed for economy. The $2,5 billion might be interest on it for one day or something.

Bush did say somethign a few weeks back about leaving the $350 billion remaining for obama to use as he decided on economy.

Sounds like a colossal waste of taxpayer money to me. Bush could have pushed for a plan like Senator Corker's of Tennessee, which would have forced the unions to make changes to become competitive, but chose to let them off the hook just to kick the ball into Obama's court. These "loans" (giveaways) will be just enough to last until Obama takes over, and then he and his Democratic Congress will just throw more money at the problem, which will not go away. Addressing the structural problems of these companies (Union wages and quality) is the only solution, but that will be lost in "smoke and mirrors".

Paulson can go can his ass---- the rest of the money plz ....this bs bush and theifs as always are putting last min fast crap... As for not buying American made cars why don't you and your non-Americans leave this country have had eight years of your sick ways. Japan. middle east go where that mental talking is in your line of thinking...

Re-pus continue to chit on the american people.  

jim537391   The best thing the American people can do now is buy non-union cars made in the south.  Lets show the Congress who runs this economy.

Darrell, I didn't read that article, What was it in?  I know two  weeks ago,  He said he was proposing a plan to get the economy heading back towards where it should be heading. In it he would be putting millions to work building roads and schools. Maybe I have my figures wrong, but  that is what is going to have to happen  for us to get back on track. Maybe it was 2.5 million people.

Chad-302396

Your right. How many people are going to go buy a car just to have it stop running before its paid off? Then we get their creditors calling us demanding payment for a car that has been parked by the road for 6months because you cant afford to fix it or get to work....and all in the back of our minds we know they are selling us a car we have already paid for! via bailout by American Taxpayers. So who the hell wants to pay for a pile-o-crap twice????

It rained in Phx, AZ one time (on tues) and now my GM (Saturn) stopped working, possibly because they build the electronic solenoid's right next to the compressor that gets wet when you drive over water! How damn genius! Cant wait to get that Honda! Not only will I have a reliable car to drive for the next 15 years, I will be proud to make my payments knowing that I actually get something in the end.....10 years of no car payments!!! whoott whoott

he was either going to "save or create" 2.5 million jobs which is truly a win win situation for obama.

He can do anything he wants. If it fails, he can say, "but if I hadn't done this, 2.5 million more jobs would have been lost, so I saved them." If it works he can say, "see my action created 2.5 million jobs" or in between, he can say, "See, because of my action, I created 1 million jobs and saved another 1.5 million." He can't go wrong with a statement like that. Smart man.

Another Individually Dumb move by the whitehouse!

The answer is obvious, "Bankruptcy... No" but a structured merger of all three into one giant company.

The issue at the core is car makers have basically for ten years been competeing amongst themselves for an ever shrinking domestic market. GM robs ford then looses it to crysler.

One car compnay would eliminate this and the stregnths of the big three can be saved...the obvious savings in lack of duplicate management, sales and supply systems would more than pay for restructuring and protect both salaries, jobs and the coveted retirement benfits.

If these CEO's who now this can not play nice in the sand box with each other then the street should short them into bankruptcy (Chapter 7). It is as basic as, do it now and get help or face the market and perish.

No one seems to talk much abou a merger, but it makes sense remember ford was founded on 2 models of car.... not 200. Volkswagen made enroads with one very ugly round car, in a labour crisis economy... this is not a new lesson. 

What exactly is a "structured" bankruptcy? This is Bush Speak. Either all bankruptcys are structured or the company dissolves. I'm for the resuce loans, but call them what they are.

Yeah I wish someone would just gag him, so we dont have to listen to the dance through the Bull@!$%# he spews out... whatever justification he likes to offer is always crap seems like...Blah Blah Blah... thats all we hear..

Top economist, who have looked at all the data & attended ALL the meetings on Capital Hill, have concluded that it is "better to just give GM & Chrysler monies, than to have them go into bankruptcy at this volatile time in our economiy.  It might start a total collapse of our U.S. financial system.  It is better to have the auto industry go out of business SLOWLY, that all at once".     

  After reading most of the post to point I see a big difference in attitude between a week ago when Congress was saying we needed to bail them out and now when Bush did bail them out.  Last week we wanted to tar and feather anyone who proposed the concept of a bail out, loan, or any other support, to the auto companies.  The rant was let them go bankrupt, they are over paid, libs are wasting our money.  Now that it was Bush that did it many have settled down and even supporting it.  Is it a one week miracle OR a party puppet change? 

  As an Independent I believe it was a move that had to happen regardless of the party who introduced it.  I only hope that the extremes understand that both parties are involved in this not just one.  I also hope it will help the extremes understand that Obama takes over January 20th.  You can blame Congress or Bush but not Obama on this or any other bailout until January 20th.

Bush scares me. I think all of this 700 billion bailout is just a ploy to down grade the middle class to slavery. Let's not let the south win. The north has to stand up for itself. Kick out the foreign automakers and let home made auto workers reign supreme.

HERE'S THE PLAN:  How is a bailout going to motivate us consumers to buy a Big 3 vehicle???  Here's the deal - give each registered tax-paying family a $25,000 voucher towards the cost of purchasing a new Big 3 vehicle.  If the vehicle is less than the voucher, the remainder of the voucher goes unused.  If the vehicle is more than the $25,000 voucher, the buyer pays the difference.  This plan is simple and motivates the buyers thus helping the Big 3 at the same time to build more vehicles for consumers! 

Dear Jayson:

I will stand in line for that!

I would like to know since the president any it seems like everyone else wants the unions to take a big hit for the auto companies,,,which with their last contract the pay structure was changed, and to match pay scales with  the foreign companies that are here now...will prices on all cars and trucks sold in the states now be lowered? 

I did not see any mention of the difference in cost of living between the states.   WIll matching reductions in the CEO's pay be made? Even better question in my mind is this...have not seen or heard of any of our representative s taking a matching cut.

David-604380

"What exactly is a "structured" bankruptcy?"

It's a pre-planned bankruptcy wherein all parties agree to certain conditions and a bankruptcy judge merely signs off, instead of the judge making decisions without the proper expertise.

The only ones happy about this is the unions. In three months we will start all over again with the same old sh...t. Than again, and again everytime they need a hand out.But by then it want mean much because the dollar want be worth a dime.

LOL.  My guess is most of you did not read the Bailout Bill.

And I TOLD YOU SO Again.

As I previously posted:  The cost of the Automaker Bailout is 18 Billion USD for a Restructuring Plan due March 2009.

Just like my posts on Financial Institution Bailout.  I posted in August 2008.  This was payback from two lawyers that represent their clients and their clients campaign contributions and Electoral College Votes:

Delaware: Freddie Mac, Fanny Mae, Bank of America, Wilmington Trust, First USA / Bank One / JPMorgan Chase, AIG, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, Barclays plc, GM, Chrysler, Wachovia, ExxonMobil, Chevron, ISDA, and those States with Corporations Incorporated at Delaware.
 
Especially, ISDA. The People that brought you:  the 60 to 100 Trillion USD (it is not 700 Billion USD US Economic Crisis) Global Economic Crisis.  These people will be back for more just like GM, Ford, Chysler, September 2008, 25 Billion, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, to milk the cash cow.  updated add: AIG, Billions USD.  The 60 to 100 Trillion USD does not include the usary interest protected by the Delaware Court of Chancery.

International Swaps and Derratives Association Incorporated, isda.org
 
Over 50% of US publicly-traded corporations and 60% of the Fortune 500 companies are incorporated in Delaware;[1] the state's attractiveness as a corporate haven is largely due to its business-friendly corporation law. Franchise taxes on Delaware corporations supply about one-fifth of its state revenue.[2]

1. Delaware Corporate Notebook

2. Delaware General Fund, 2007, By Category

Before someone says Oh, but I contributed 2,000 USD.  Consider how much it costs to short term lease hundreds of campaign offices in each State.  Consider that campaign contributions from the above list is nearly a Billion Each (ok just short of a Billion).  This is the reason the BIPARTISAN Campaign Reform Act was not adhered to, no disclosure, no accountability to the public.  (now being reported by CBS News, 12112008,  http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4661792n).

Specific Locations that Benefitted from Financial Institution Bailout for Electoral College Votes:

http://realestate.msn.com/Buying/Article_busweek.aspx?cp-documentid=10856357&gt1=35000
http://realestate.msn.com/slideshow.aspx?cp-documentid=10857148

The next I TOLD YOU SO is when they come back to implement the Restructuring Plans and ask for the 150 Billion USD.  About March 2009.

Their proposed Restructuring Plans are Close US 1/3 Plants/Factories, Layoff 1/3 US "Work Force" while retaining the Mexican/Canadian/Chinese Plants/Factories and associated "Work Force".  Note:  Previous 2002, September 2008 (25 Billion USD) Bailouts used to build Plants/Factories at Machau, China and Toluca, Mexico.

Ok, I under estimated them.  Since they are already starting to close US Plants/Factories, with Layoffs of the associated "Work Force".  Think about this, all of those that work at the "Temporarily" Closed US Plants/Factories, how far is "Temporarily" Closed away from becoming "Permanently" Closed.

They also get to keep their private jets, but cannot buy new ones.

The Golden Parachutes that are 20% of budget as "executive compensation opportunities" are retained as accued benefits.

Note:  Don't blame me.  These are just the facts on paper and research since 1990.

I don't understand why people are so down on the American auto Makers and the Japanese are slattering us. Don't we understand Japanese Industries and the world is under cutting the American standards of living. Don't we see our pride in American Industry going down the tube or selling out America is the theme of the time?

 Patriot48-780923

I don't understand why people are so down on the American auto Makers and the Japanese are slattering us. Don't we understand Japanese Industries and the world is under cutting the American standards of living. Don't we see our pride in American Industry going down the tube or selling out America is the theme of the time?

Well, let's see.  They refused to adhere to previous US Bailouts Terms, Conditions, Agreements, since the 1970s Oil Crisis.  And everyone else has without US Bailout Money.

They sell crap to the US and good stuff overseas.  Tradegy is that they (GM, Ford, Chrysler) did not listen to W.E. Deming like everyone else did internationally.  Quality = Fault Tolerance:  US Only Specification = .7mm versus International Specification (GM Opel, Ford AG) = .5mm with goal of .4mm .

The stupidity is that the "Foreign" Automakers are more "American" than the "American" Automakers. 

And the US Military cannot buy from them (GM, Ford, Chrysler) under the "Buy US Only Products, Goods, and Services" per GAO.  And must build US Military Equipment at GO/GO and GO/CO Plants and Factories.

The profits from the sales of the "Foreign" Automakers stay with the Foreign Automaker US Affliates.  And is reinvested in the US.  Example:  Honda USA profits to built new Honda USA Plant/Factory at Indiana.  Toyota USA sales profits used to fund new plant at Mississippi.  The tragedy is that they learned this in US Business School and from what W.E. Deming indicated in his 14 Points.

The US Corporations sales profits and previous US Bailouts (since the 1970s) went to build at Toluca, Mexico and Machau, China.  This is why Congress was concerned during recent Testimony that US Bailout Money would be used this way again.

"Congress wonders if US Bailout will be spent in US" - news article MSN, "All American Bailout".

Screw the automakers they were told years ago they needed restructuring. The government should take the remaining bailout money and give it to the public. Now that would boost our economy!

Interesting folks, you all seem to want the auto companies to fail but are ok with the billions given to the banks?  What makes them any better than the auto companies, or any other company for that matter?  WHy so many strings attached to one and not the other.  Why can we not get strings attached to what our representatives get paid....like no work no pay..or wouild that be asking to much? Why isn't everyone down on them rather than a set of companies that have thousands of employees and benefit thousands more?  The auto companies have a better chance of balancing their books than our own government does....you want to get dowm on wasted funds...take a good look at what our representatives waste each year with no complaints from any of us....

What on earth gave you the idea anyone is OK with the no strings attached bailouts to the Banks? I think for the large part most people were against every and all bailouts from the get-go. People are down on the auto industry for several reasons:

• the union's refusal to renogatiate contracts until 2011
• being uncompetitive with foreign manufacturers including those currently having plants in the USA employing American workers
• no plans given by GM/Chrysler on how they will prevent needing the same bailout in 3-4 months
• inability to be flexible
• total lack of vision for needs of transportation (e.g. for years building SUV's etc instead of focusing on making vehicles more fuel efficient or pursuing alternative choices)
• turning up at the Senate hearings with no plan other than to beg for $

Those are just a few off the top of my head. I'd rather reserve any auto industry bailout for those companies further down the supply chain who will get hurt if GM/Chrysler went belly-up. The impact on them is more unjust as they had no control over the mismanagement by their customer.

And finally, if the entire banking industry collapsed everything would grind to a halt. If GM/Chrysler fail, it's not like you cannot use your car or buy a new one from a manufacturer who didn't mess up.

Yeah I was all for helping them out at first... but I have been looking at buying a car for the last 3 weeks and they dont want to help themselves out by selling the damn things...What does any company do when they are going out of business or cutting inventory.. they slash prices like 50-75%... I dont see them pushing any inventory seeing as they need to sell cars!! They sure arent cutting back their research on the new Camaro or Challengers... why not?? If they are having that bad a times they would reduce the amount of models they offer and target fuel economy and alternate energy cars.... They arent doing this either.... Doesnt sound like they need help then!!

You just have to be in "the club".

"The Club" that pays its bills and doesn't spend more than it has...yup that's the one

Absolutely, it's amazing what living within your means and paying your bills on time can do.  It seems if you've proven you are responsible and trustworthy the banks have money wheny ou need it, at good rates too.  Funny how that works, but the concept is obviously beyond the grasp of many. 

D. Reinhart.....It's tough to "live within your means" if you lose your job. Too many American jobs have been shipped to other countries. Obviously, you were not one of the unfortunate ones who lost their job to a guy in India or anywhere else in the world.

Those in "the club" are so arrogant.
Hope you get a chance to see what
it's like out here.  Maybe you'll be
taken in by someone like Madoff !

i like being a member of 'the club'.  feels good right now.  all you folks who don't pay your bills are on the outside looking in.  see how much fun we're having in here?  you know why?  bc we were responsible and did the right things financially when times were good.  we didn't buy a house we stretched for.  didn't buy a benz or beemer bc 'we deserved it'.  losing your job is unfortunate, but to be honest i am tired of hearing about it.  figure out something to do.  you could start a new business...you do have a hobby don't you?  make that into revenue.  think beyond your small comfortable world.  life isn't easy.  you may have to move.  you may have to get rid of that 60 inch tv.  do what you need to to succeed.   

Those not in the club are ignorant to how the system works.

Maybe your hobby should be spelling.

I agree completely, credit is not the problem, it is the fact that those who don't have jobs want to be able to borrow money they can't pay back.  That is how we got in this mess in the first place, starting with Freddie and Fanny and all those involved with ACRON.

Amen ltp!!

Techie I live in the real world, I make the real world happen for me and my familly. My wife and I work long, hard, and smart. We save, invest, we prepare for "down" times.

I don't wish bad things on people (unlike you) and think is unfortunate that bad things do happen to good people and hope they prepared for it

Matt & DR,

Your simple response vis a vis creit is incorrect at the current time. Lines of credit across the country have been called or reduced regardless of your credit score or credit worthiness. For the vast majority of Americans their home is their sole tangible asset and lending institutions do not wish to use them collateral. The same holds true for business such as mine who has secured credit with property for 25 yrs. Properties that have allowed us credit lines in the area of $500,000.00 now if we are lucky allow us $200,000.00 if this continues for too much longer we will probably go out of business. We are in the construction industry and payment schedules for receivables tend to be drawn out therefore recquiring short term loans. Additionally credit from suppliers has been greatly reduced and no one allows you to go past 30 days, formerly they just charged an interest rate approaching 2.5% per month. This credit crisis affects everyone regardless of what your credit has been. My credit score is over 700 have equity in my home approaching $300,000 own a business for 25 yrs have a bank behind my office and have had my available credit reduced by almost 40%.

JKHayes

As one of those I guess "in the club" I would like to offer some advice if possible (and open to it).  There are a lot of jobs out there right now, but you may not be able to find your perfect job.  When times got lean for me, I had to work away from my family to ensure my families survival, flying home every other weekend.  Was it ideal, not at all.  But to ensure financial stability of my family (as well as making sure my wife didn't have to go to work so she can focus on the family and their needs) I did was I had to do, sacrificed for my family and we made ends meet.

Now with business better than before, I'm overly employed again, with offers coming almost daily for more work (computer industry).  Trust me - there is work out there, but you are right in the fact that you aren't going to be able to sit at home watching TV and have the perfect company throw the perfect job that is 5 minutes from your house into your lap.

(Oh, and we own a used Town & Country and I just bought myself a used Dodge Ram...nothing above my means, both used, and combined, cost less than the new Mercedes my neighbor bought two years ago that they just lost because they could no longer afford the payments.)

D. Reinhart, are you kidding me that would mean personal responsibility.  Look we have been told for years we need a savings with six months to live.  I feel bad for those folks losing their jobs but there are jobs out there maybe you have to work two, been there done that.

As for losing jobs to overseas, check with your Unions, the American worker has outpriced themselvs.  It is time to regroup and get a reality check.

Yep we built a house used half of what they told us we could afford almost fell of my chair when they said we could afford twice as much as we thought we could. We buy things if we have the cash! if not we do without till we do. Both have older cars with no loans and dont need new ones. Yeah the younger gen is instant gratification.

Jim Hayes- Your credit lines have been reduced to reflect real equity

The other thing to factor is keeping always on the alert of new ideas to generate income.  We use Credit Cards with rewards and then pay them off every month.  But we noticed this year that we had maxed the benefits around halfway through the year...so the last half of the year we got nothing for using the card.

I put a call in, got a cash back card and am now getting around $60/month back from them...doesn't sound like much until you multiply that by 12.  $720 is a nice chunk of FREE MONEY that is used to add to the annual vacation fund - think of it as our annual "stimulus check"...lol.  But key again is that we pay off our credit cards every month.

There's money out there to be made and saved but people these days, like you said "spooky" are looking for instant gratification and simplicity without thought.

Yes, there are plenty of jobs out there, as a matter of fact more jobs then there are unemployed.  Sure maybe not what you want now but it will get you off your couch and out of the unemployment line but then those who would rather sit and complain would actually have to do something.  Guess there families are not worth the sacrifice of taking alittle less for a short time, easier to complain, sit on there butts and wait for the handouts the Dems love to give. 

I get so tired of hearing how hard it is, we all face tough times, some of us just move on, restructure our own lives and stay credit worthy and then there are those that just give up and blame everyone else.....

For those here who are saying that by paying bills on time you can get credit/loans, you have not been paying attention to the news.  There was a piece on the  evening news just last night about a small business owner who always paid his bills on time and had no debt.  He wanted to get a loan to expand his business, but his bank with whom he already had a credit line and no debt quoted him an interest rate three times higher than it was last year, despite his ultra-sound financial status.

I love these posts that are all about how the poster is so much better than everyone else.  Yea for you, you're the best person who ever lived (sorry Jesus, Ghandi, and Mother Theresa, you've been bested).  I would never brag about my family's financial position or rub it in the faces of those less fortunate...yes my husband and I have worked hard and saved to be as comfortable as we are, but we have also been very blessed and in some cases just plain lucky.  For example when my husband lost his job last spring he was fortunate enough to get three job offers within two weeks (and we're engineers who live in metro Detroit).  Hard work, yes, but also a generous measure of good forutne.  Some people can't look at their lives and see God's grace, and that's unfortunate.  Not everyone has had the same luck as you or been blessed as much as you have.  For some life if just a poopstorm.  Get over yourself.

Amen!

MI Voter,

I agree with you 110% that there is a sense of luck sometimes to what people get/have in life, you have also have concede the fact that it seems to be a lot easier to piss and moan about bad times than it is to sacrifice, knuckle down, and make things work.

I graduated with a girl that wanted to, as a teacher, work at a particular school.  She was offered jobs at other schools but she wanted that one school...so she sat, unemployed for years, living at home and sponging off her parents because that one specific school didn't hire her.

In re-reading the posts, I don't think anyone is here saying, "I'm great and you suck" or anything like that...or at least I would hope not.  I honestly believe, with every fiber of my being that there is work out there and it's honestly a matter of, what are you willing to sacrifice and what are you willing to endure to do it.  

It's Christmas time for heaven's sake...there are companies hiring temp workers through the holidays, stores hiring nightime inventory stockers...I know it's only 8-10/hour, but if you can get that extra few grand, sacrificing the "8 hours of sleep" every once and a while"...I just don't see that people are willing to give everything they possibly can, sacrificing their integrity and their creature comforts to make ends meet...just know too many people that have the, "Oh, I couldn't imagine myself doing THAT" mentality.

If it means putting food on my kids table...grocery bagger, Walmart stocker, gas pumper...whatever it takes man.

I pay my bills on time and most of the time IN FULL ! Sometimes it takes 2 or 3 months(like after X-mas).To pay off my one and only credit card.

 But in Oct. I bought a new car. I was worried abouy getting the loan...It took all of 15 minutes to get the Ok. The car salesman told me I had one of the highest credit ratings they had ever seen....man that made me feel good.

I wonder why the big 3, ALL Banks, AIG, etc...can't seem to 'get' paying their bills?

Matt,

That is not true, a year ago my home was worth around $450,000.00 it is a 90 yr old home in Havertown Pa. with an in laws suite and six bedrooms I could sell it now for $375,000 to $400,000.00 my mortgage is for $150,000.00 previous equity was calculated as $240,000.00 today I would have difficulty securing $100,000.00 explain real equity. I own the property my office is in outright it currently would sell for $225,000.00 it also has a rental apartment it previously when valued @ $260,000.00 zoned commercial secured $200,000.00 in short term loans now it secures @ $100,000.00 please explain.

JKHayes

I am proudly in "the club".  I have no debts, nothing.

But to do that, I had to sacrifice a house and live in a small and affordable apartment.  I drive a 10 year old car.  My TV is 20 years old.  I never eat out except maybe something from the "Dollar Menu" if I am in a crunch.

BUT, freedom from any and all debt is, as they say "Priceless."

When you owe no one anything, you have so many freedoms, so many options, the world is simply wide open.

I don't think anyone is here saying, "I'm great and you suck" or anything like that.

Really?

"People need to learn to either live within their means. So if that means that you have to get a second job or you have lost your job, maybe you need to take a lower paying job and get past your ego's."

"I get so tired of hearing how hard it is, we all face tough times, some of us just move on, restructure our own lives and stay credit worthy and then there are those that just give up and blame everyone else....."

"Techie I live in the real world, I make the real world happen for me and my familly. My wife and I work long, hard, and smart. We save, invest, we prepare for "down" times."

  "It seems if you've proven you are responsible and trustworthy the banks have money wheny ou need it, at good rates too.  Funny how that works, but the concept is obviously beyond the grasp of many. "

These are the commets from arrogant. pompous a$$es who think all the people who can't make ends meet are just lazy or  they won't get the "perfect" job .

Not everyone has had the same luck as you or been blessed as much as you have.  For some life if just a poopstorm.  Get over yourself.

I second this!  Of course they don't count those blessings --instead they pretend to be wiser and more hard working than everyone else , They actually , laughably believe they are the only ones who work hard and planned for down times.....  Please..LOLOL!

Hope you don't get caught in the path of the tornado --but if you do , maybe you'll wise up.

This club isn't as exclusive as it used to be.  There used to be over 530,000 people in that club, but for some reason or another they were given pink slips. 

You can't remain in the club and live within your "means" when you're job has been taken away or shipped overseas. 

It's amazing how often this "live within your means"  subject comes up. 

It easy to do as long as those "means" are there week after week, but once those "means" are taken away, it's not that easy.

Yet,  various companies like the ones holding your car note and or mortgage, are waiting for their portion of those "means" and they're now calling former members of the club wanting to know how soon they'll receive their portions of those "means" ....they don't seem to understand or care that those "means" don't exist anymore.  

You would think those of you still in the "club" would show a little compassion for those who through no fault of there own are no longer members.

It's strange,  at one time in history,  some people were restricted from clubs because of the color of their skin,  because they were woman, or both.  Now you can get banned from the club because you've lost your way of "means"

Next we'll being seeing signs on buildings, restaurants, buses, and water coolers

Haves only.

I am tired of hearing all these simplistic comments about people being worthy or small business being credit worthy and or why we shouldn't loan the auto industry money, get real about what has happened, the banks do have money plenty thanks to paulson and this adminstration...they are not lending, the problems that exist today have nothing to do with workers wages and being credit worthy, the problems is the investment banks, brokers,credit rating agency's,and wall street have been allowed to go completely unregulated for eight years and have hustled foreign investors,pensions funds,city's,states,foreign governments and anyone with a dollar to the tune of several trillions dollars, and the executive's and boards and the CEO's have been paid hundreds of billion of dollars as they do it. the cost of manufacturing in this country has nothing to do with workers pay when workers are paid $8-25 dollars an hour and the corporate CEO is paid a million to hundred million more than the worker gets an hour how can any company reasonably operate, CEO's lay off ten thousand workers and destabilize the economy, then get fifty or a hundred million dollars bonus ??? how many workers can be employed for a hundred million dollars, I forgot one item unregulated health care the largest cause of bankruptcy in this nation before the foreclosure crisis. lets get real with the real problems with our economy and government, quit blaming the slaves for the masters greed and incompetence, a banker who was in Hong Kong recently was asked by some investment bankers " is the whole American government and Wall Street completely corrupt".  we may not see foreign investment for many years to come.

And you know this how?  Credit may be out there, however, if you have no job, what are people supposing to buy?  food!!!

See Chuck...I read that message you quoted 5x and all I read in it is someone that is illustrating a point that many have known for a long time, that people love to live beyond their means...though maybe the ego note was nailing it a bit harder than needed...

When times are difficult, we polarize depending on our situation, and while the wording may not be the best (because what you type may not be indicative of your actual meaning), I would challenge those that have a lot of time to say how horrible it is to see if they are in fact doing absolutely everything in their power to get ahead.  I'm not talking about putting a resume out there and waiting for a response..that's the easy part.  I'm talking about dropping a few of the creature comforts we as a society have deemed "needs" when in actuality, they are merely "wants".  

If someone is having financial problems and has cable, internet access, cell phones, advanced home phone plans (learned about that one a few years ago a saved about $20/month on my bill by axing a LOT of things you don't need...like long distance), TV's in multiple rooms (we have 1 TV in our house), etc...

I would also look to people to check their spending habits and if they are maximizing THEIR gains by the way they spend.  If you are "cash only" is it because you feel more control that way, because if not, you are losing out on not only interest earned by delayed payment of funds, but also on perks offered by CC companies like...cash back on money spent.  We get the Sunday paper for $1.50 just so I can get the $20 in grocery coupons and cater our dinners to try and best accommodate the coupons...every little bit helps.  Heck, I see a penny on the ground I pick it up...what can I say, I'm weird like that.

We do all have setbacks in our lives (I'm right now recovering from a blood clot in my leg that broke off and went to both lower lungs) but I guess when I get hit by "a wall" I immediately look for the way around, over, under, through it and don't focus on it...or else it will wear you down.

I would never want anyone to think my comments are meant to hurt, so let me say that now...but in the hopes that they may inspire others to see about every nuance on their living and spending habits with the hope that maybe they can be in a better place financially if they try every possible avenue.

for Jim Hayes, I understand what you're saying, especially on home values, however for most what I'd consider consumer spending, there's plenty of money available for qualified borrowers. For the large business loans, I'm not that familiar with situation.

I and family own three toyota cars and one chevrolet truck. Home paid for. We did sell another house this past summer and didn't make as much as I had hoped. I regularly get letters from toyota and gm to purchase another vehicle with pre-approved lending "due to my excellent credit history". Offers for lines of credit from my existing credit cards also come regularly at rates that aren't bad. 4.9 - 6.9%, often with administration fee capped at $99 to $150. I would guess with just a few phone calls I could get financing on two new vehicles and a credit line on cards of around $100,000, a total of say $150,000 without even going through the credit check, paperwork etc, of lending process.

Other problems can show up in some cases, but paying bills on time has always been important and it should be. Hopefully this redistribution of wealth concept I'm still worried about won't encourage people to continue to spend beyond their means.

The banks would not need a bailout if they manage within their means and were responsible and trustworthy in business dealings.  Remember how many times your loan was sold.

ltp

"i like being a member of 'the club'.  feels good right now.  all you folks who don't pay your bills are on the outside looking in.  see how much fun we're having in here?  you know why?  bc we were responsible and did the right things financially when times were good.  we didn't buy a house we stretched for.  didn't buy a benz or beemer bc 'we deserved it'.  losing your job is unfortunate, but to be honest i am tired of hearing about it.  figure out something to do.  you could start a new business...you do have a hobby don't you?  make that into revenue.  think beyond your small comfortable world.  life isn't easy.  you may have to move.  you may have to get rid of that 60 inch tv.  do what you need to to succeed."   

Come down from your pedestal and chat with me.  I have no debt except college loans which, yes, while I was struggling to find work out of college I got behind on but have gotten all that squared away and I have never owned a credit card nor do I live outside my means. I have a great business I have been trying to get up and running for 5 years.  I have a solid business plan and have laid it out to the banks but because I do not have "enough" revolving credit and my business is apparently not "big" enough to qualify for a loan, I have to continue to sit on this and work for pennies at whatever company happens to be hiring in my community, while I try to build up enough savings to pay for the start up of my business. My wife works 60 hrs a week in sales and because of the economy is not even coming close to the money she has made in the past so we are now living paycheck to paycheck.  We pay our bills but have nothing leftover and should something happen (injury, car trouble, etc) we're up Sh*ts creek without a paddle.  And we've done everything we were supposed to do.   So before you jump to conclusions that everyone struggling are people who don't pay their bills and are living outside their means, you should try to be more understanding and less arrogant.  The world is not black and white!

Anthony,

I applaud your entrepreneurial spirit and your dedication to keeping the debt off the radar - that is very commendable.  I understand your "cash only" ideology but as it sounds like you do have financial savvy (and self control) have you every contemplated getting a credit card that would basically pay you for doing nothing more than your doing now.  (I know...I sound like I make money from the CC companies or something, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone that might get in trouble for having no control).

If you have the self-control and dedication that you state you have, imagine getting 400-700 a year that could be used to help offset the college loans, or to be there if you do get some car trouble...just something to think about.

Again, I know times are tough, but congrat's for the continued persistence in the forward path...I am a firm believer in Karma and am confident your commitment will be rewarded.

Shawn

thanks shawn!  i actually had someone steal y identity once and use it to get a CC and that CC company to this day accuses me of lying so I choose to have nothing to do with them.  But maybe now that congress is doing something about the ridiculous CC practices I may consider it.

Cheers mate - and Merry Christmas!

If you are having trouble paying your bills, you should disconnect your internet service that cost you $40 a month and you shouldn't be sitting around posting messages.  On the other hand it is the season for giving for those of us who can and should!!! There are many people out there who lost their jobs because of company failure, not because the workers are failures!!!!  I feel fortunate to have a job in the healthcare industry that seems to be strong, but who knows.....I could be a job loss statistic someday too.  Just be grateful you have a job and have a heart for those who have lost their.

Chad,

no offense but again you jump to conclusions like ITP - I happen to be on my work PC right now waiting for our xmas party lunch to start and the internet service i have at home is a necessity because my wife's job requires it to operate.  Again the world is not as black and white as some on here would have us all believe!  Let's try a little understanding and have a slice of humble pie this holiday season.

What's on the menu for christmas party lunch, anthony? We had italian at ours and approval rating on it was lower than for Nancy Pelosi.

We ended up with donuts, cookies, pastries, soda, and other caffeine/sugar treats at ours...too obvious that I'm in the computer industry???

Italian gives me a good idea for lunch plans today though...thanks Darrell.  :)

benihana! (japanese steak and seafood house)  i'm pretty excited!!!!

our brought in italian wasn't too good, but normally I love it. Have a good one!

Shawn..........Everything you are saying is very true when it comes to personal finance.  On the grand scale, if everyone had been doing it the right way, our economy would not have been as strong as it has been for years it was falsely good.  By everyone spending more money than they make, the economy grows larger than the available capitol.  This is what has led to our current problems....you also have to admit, company's stocks would not have been worth what they were trading at if people were not spending more than they had, this gave those who invested a false sense of their worth......whether that be auto makers, TV manufacturers, homebuilders....ect.  This drove up prices on everything from materials to labor to food to fuel.  It allowed manufactures to target everyone and charge them more than many could really afford leading them to higher profits.  It allowed unions like the UAW to demand companies to pay their workers more.  If they are able to pay more in good times, they should get to pay less in bad times......let's face it, if they don't they will not survive.  The only way to fix it is for everyone to live within their means, this will drag out the downturn out for a very long time....the question is how long will people continue to hold on to everything they have, I am not cutting loose of my cash because I am scared of how long this will last and I am not in a personal financial crisis, I have not yet been hurt, but I am very tight compared to 6 months ago......until people like me feel confident in our economy again, we are stuck. 

David,

I agree 100%...a simple lie spread to multiple lies...which spread wider and much like a lie that is out of control, it becomes all-consuming or severely (and painfully) bites you in the butt.

The original lie...what we were entitled to possess.  I watched a show "Property Virgins" the other night and a guy was buying his first apartment (was in his late 20's, had a Audi, Rolex, and iPhone and was living at home for free - don't get me started there) but was going to the condo/apartment places and turning them down because they didn't have granite counters, didn't have stainless appliances, didn't have hardwood flooring and all I could think was...WTF?!?

The individuals and the nation trudged forward to an uncontrollable lie about who we were, what we were able to afford, and what the difference is between a "want" and a "need", and now we're ALL going to have to learn the painful lesson about bearing the weight of other's mistakes...it's not going to be easy, and it's not going to be a "quick fix".

Like you David, I'm holding a lot of cash "in hand" and have so far, been comfortably (and prayerfully) untouched by the downturn of the nation (save my 401k of course), but it will be years I believe before we pull from the doldrums and start moving forward again...hopefully a little wiser...and a little more truthful to ourselves as well as to others.

the club that feels so good when they have their foot on you head while drowning

Conerned,

As others have said, nothing is black and white, and your definitive statement that:

Some people in this country went through hard times - times that would have brought these punks to their knees.

it's a shame you yourself don't walk in another shoes before making a accusation like that.

At 17 I was alone, working 2 full time jobs to keep a crappy apartment over my head (daytime Morrison's Family Dining, nightime 7-11), napping in my car instead of taking a lunch/dinner breaks so I'd have enough energy to pull the next 9 hour night shift.  

I ate whatever food I could find (including...well...you know those scraps that you'd send back at the restaurant when you were full - hey, you do what you have to do to survive - even eating what is essentially...trash).

So I've been there, I know the pain...and I scratched and dragged my way through all of it, bypassing every adversity (like Epilepsy, etc.) and not once did I sit back and think that I wouldn't overcome.  I knew I was more than what I was at that time and through struggle, prayer, diligence, and persistence, I am where I am today.

I'm not sitting with some arrogant "pride" to be in this "club" that someone mentioned as a joke, but I do understand the true nature of a "need" vs. a "want" and refuse to allow my family to live beyond their means...so that they live their lives with an honesty about who they are and what their station in life is.

Not  Jesus, Ghandi, or Mother Theresa, just a regular guy that never ever ever quit.

You all are ok if you lose your job and have to work two or three minimum wage jobs? You all can pay your bills ok with making min wage? Because that's what kinda jobs are out there, solely because there are so many unemployed that new hires have no leverage to ask for more $$!!!! And your children, they will take care of themselves while you are working 20-22 hours a day....no worries about them getting into situations while left alone all day, or will you get a 4th job to pay someone to watch your teens? You know, the oldest child plays mommy and daddy to the little ones while you slave away trying to pay the electric bill, while you never saw the energy being used because you we away for the building (your home) you sacrafice to pay for. Will you call maintinence when something goes wrong with your place or will you use the 3hours you have off to fix the sink, do laundry, grocery shopping and house repairs, or will you let your house fall apart because you cant afford the repairs and you have no time to repair it yourself?

Shawn - I'll see your "find a penny pick it up" and raise you a "pick up soda cans along the side of the road and turn them in" (it's a MII thing.  And I believe a PA thing, I don't remember.  Newton would know.  Now there's a guy who can live within his means.  Good thing the mail never stops).

MI,

Wow...that takes me back to the highschool days when I would go can hunting on the 2 mile trek to Safeway (if they still have those up North...from Maryland) every Saturday morning where they would weigh it and give me money for all the cans I collected.

Haven't found any place here in Florida that does that anymore...shame b/c it teaches kids what it really takes to earn a dollar, thereby emphasizing the value of money - an important lesson kids need to understand when Christmas comes around and times are tough.

Thanks for the walk down memory lane,

Shawn

Shawn,

Most kids ( and a few adults) now a days won't settle for the money they can get for picking up cans and bottles. A lot won't even bother to work at a fast food place because the wages are to low. They expect to get what most of us have spent years working for and earning by the sweat of our brows.

Lest See.... My credit score went for mid 700's to the mid 600's  in one month. I pay my bills on time, every time and I do not have high balances........ could it be that the credit card companies lowered my available credit that caused my score to nosedive???

There is no club.  We are all going to get flushed down this economic toilet together.  At least with the aid to the Big 3 I'll still have a job.

I would challenge those that have a lot of time to say how horrible it is to see if they are in fact doing absolutely everything in their power to get ahead.  I'm not talking about putting a resume out there and waiting for a response..that's the easy part.

You assume again that most of these people were/are living beyond there means and haven't put in any effort to find work.  A lot of these people were living quite within their means and ended up unemployed thanks to unscrupulous bankers and the ripple effect of this in the economy. Now they can't find work at all not even at McDonalds.

Your tale of woe , where you had to fly out for the weekend to work and make ends meet is an attempt at saying you've been there...and that's a laugh --see you actually believe that was suffering , c'mon flying  to a job and now no weekends with your spouse ??? AWWWW!!!  Sounds a lot like a the "suffereing" of the CEOs of GM , Ford or Chrysler.  

You haven't a CLUE what it's like to live paycheck to paycheck and barely have enough to pay for basic things like FOOD or gas.

Let me know when you are working at McDonalds, Walmart and Pizza Hut and you give up every night with your spouse and kids, work through holidays for months.

Until you've REALLY been there you never know --so please try having some compassion  instead of giving condescending lectures and pretending these  fools who are stroking their own brittle egos with their comments aren't talking down to anyone who is having hard times.

Obviously Chuck you haven't read what I went through....please re-read #2.46 and get back with me when you've ben there...

And my point regarding having to find a job elsewhere and only seeing my family 4 days/week was to ensure that people are looking out of their "comfort level" when looking for work.  I was just on an Orlando board (where I live) where a man said he's been out of work for over six months and has sent 50 resumes out, only 2 of which having replied.  When I lost two of my clients (ripple to a bad housing market as you mentioned) in the beginning of the year, I hit Dice.com and Net-Temps.com as well as CareerBuilder.com and sent out between 50 and 100 resume's a DAY...started local, then to the state level and after a WEEK started spamming the country.  By the time I found a few things, I had over a 1,000 postings...because that's what was needed to be done.

Your bitterness regarding my postings without clueing in that everything I've posted has been in a sincere attempt to assist where possible, providing possible ventures that might have, until now been untapped is really rather sad - but for some reason you choose to think that, because I've been lucky/blessed/whatever, that I'm somehow sticking my nose up to those less fortunate...shame.

None of my input has been at all condescending...and I'm sorry that you feel that it has been.  To that end, I guess I'll just wish you well and hopefully others might be investigating some of the opportunities I have mentioned in an effort to assist them in their situation.

Good luck and God bless,
Shawn 

Bull Guy down the street with a1 credit just got turned down Tuesday. Most of the money thats available is from local banks not the biggies and anyone who is not perfect in their payments gets knocked. This guy sends his payments in two weeks in advance of the due date and got slammed and it took him 3 months to get the late payment removed. They credited it to a different account. That credit scor baloney is the cause of more problems than its worth.

why cant people realise that when people post about the lazy people who wont take a lower payer job or would rather sit on benefits instead of busting their ***'s we arent talking about everyone! its a generalisation which is true to what ive seen but i know there are always exceptions. in my area all the fast food restaurants and walmart are desperate for workers but no one will take them, most likely because people deem them 'below them', so they would rather claim unemployment and complain about how the banks want to foreclose their home, they cant buy food, cant buy christmas presents etc... boring, if there are jobs you take them, the government should force people to take them, with all these cries of job losses there should be no jobs at the job centres at all, remember ... taking a job does not mean its your job for life, just take it while you look for something better.

also before people say i dont know what its like i worked a full time day job - 8am-5pm, then an evening job 5.30-9.30 and a sat job to get by when i was left with a mortgage by myself so i know what its like to not have a life and work so many hours i could barley function but it worked out in the end.

Lin-403073

The banks would not need a bailout if they manage within their means and were responsible and trustworthy in business dealings.  Remember how many times your loan was sold.

That is why when they (GM, Chrysler) approached the Bailed Out Financial Institutions for a Loan they were denied as "Lack of Credibility" and "no viable Restructuring Plan".  Especially, when they indicated that 20% of their budget was "executive compensation opportunities".

Their model:

Manufacturer  ---> Sell Products ---> Sales Profits ---> Executive Compensation Opportunities, foreign investments or anywhere else ---> ask for loans/bailouts to reinvest in manufacturer/business (while increasing business expenses).

Proper Simplified Model:

Manufacturer ----> Sell Products ----> Sales Profits ----> Reinvest majority in Manufacturer/Business (minus "business expenses").

Tradegy is that they (GM, Ford, Chrysler) did not listen to W.E. Deming like everyone else did internationally.  Quality = Fault Tolerance:  US Only Specification = .7mm versus International Specification (GM Opel, Ford AG) = .5mm with goal of .4mm .

Jim Hayes-

It could be the way the loans are structured or you may need a new bank...but credit is very available.

Shawn-299392
#2.54 - Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:31 PM CST

Obviously Chuck you haven't read what I went through....please re-read #2.46 and get back with me when you've been there...

Yep  Shawn,  I noticed you changed your story  2.46 written at 11:43 , to be as pathetic as you could possibly  come up with....hmmm why the big change from your big story from 2.12 written at 8:29 am?

 I call BS. You're making this up as you go along. How pathetic.

Chuck.....you make it sound like anyone with success had to have it given to them because there is no way anyone can get on top without knowing someone, or been given a trust fund.  I work in the auto industry.  Not production but retail.  I had no way to fund college, the oldest of 4 children, I saw how my parents struggled to provide for us.  I told myself that I was not going to do that.  I busted my butt as a salesperson right out of high school, as I do today as a General Manager of a GM store.  I have had a lot of things go right for me for which I count my blessings everyday.  I have a lot of friends that used to give me a hard time about working 70 hrs a week, called me greedy, don't have a life, altogether stopped talking to me.  I'm now married, have four children and have saved money.  Just because you come from nothing, doesn't mean you are destined to live that way.  My success comes from great sacrifice from me, my wife, and children, I don't see many of my kids games, I don't get to see my wife much, but we are very happy.  We also have great benefits from this, my wife gets to stay home to raise our children, and we don't have to worry about the house payment or grocery bill.  Many people in the same type of job, with the same type of income, do live way beyond their means, too much house, too much stuff, too expensive of vacations, ect.  They are feeling the pinch, and I'm not.  I also know that if the owner of my store came in and shut it down tomorrow (which he won't...we are still selling cars!), I will be fine, I will find somewhere else or something else for me to get mine.

The problem with your opinion, (in my opinion), is you don't understand.....just like most in America, what "living within your means" actually means.  I sell cars to people everyday that decide whether they can afford a car by how high the payment is.  Very few people look at what they are spending on a car as the purchase price, but the payment.  They take this idea to every aspect of their lives.  I can't afford a 60" HD TV at $2100 but I can afford $30/month, I can get rid of my credit card debt that I'm having a hard time paying (because I said I can afford $30/month way to many times) by taking out a second mortgage.  The next thing they know, their cards are maxed out again.  The worst part about this is that very few people pay themselves.  Its not a bill so I don't have to pay my savings account, my IRA, my 401k.  This is how 80% of America is 1 paycheck from bankruptcy.  People knew what they were doing when they borrowed the money, and to make it worse, the banks knew what the people were doing when they lent it to them.  The government even passed laws requiring banks to make credit available to people they wouldn't normally lend to.  Its not the banks, its not the government, its not the people, it is ALL of us. 

The only way to fix it is to stop putting blame on everyone or everything else.  Simply make the decision that you are done struggling, make the commitment to do what it takes, no matter how hard it is or what the sacrifices are, and do it.  These are the principles our country were founded on, and need to get back to.  We are turning to communism and we know how that turned out for the USSR.

Luck is all that seperates the 'club' from the nonclub

Shawn, your wife could have easily found someone else to occupy her attention while you were gone, all of the sudden half your income is gone...  Still going to be president of the club?

The rest of you, credit scores are famously inaccurate.  I used to work for a credit card company.  They are intentionally misleading, do diablolical things to screw with your payments and rates, and even if you think "hey I'll avoid it" then they get you by accusing you of not having a credit score at all. 

I am tickled to think of all you elitist club members who will laugh at your neighbors getting booted from their houses... that is until you see your own property values go down by 3/4.  All of the sudden your equity is gone, your nest egg lost in the stock fiasco, your healthcare bills spiraling out of control.  Then I hope you think of me.

Karma is a B...

Yep  Shawn,  I noticed you changed your story  2.46 written at 11:43 , to be as pathetic as you could possibly  come up with....hmmm why the big change from your big story from 2.12 written at 8:29 am? 
 I call BS. You're making this up as you go along. How pathetic. 

how pathetic indeed...

The "BS" as you call it in 2.46 was at the age of 17 (way back in 1987), long before I was married (at 30).  That was the first and most difficult obstacle I ever faced in my life...funny thing is, I even mention that detail (age and what not) but  I guess you figured you'd overlook it.

The "story" as you call it in 2.12 was in 2004.  Hence the mention of my family as in, 'When times got lean for me, I had to work away from my family to ensure my families survival,'...see...this would have been when the IT bubble burst in 2001/2002, when jobs became more scarse in my industry and I had to take work in the Virginia area while my wife and children stayed here in Orlando.  We all made sacrifices as we attempted to survive a dying industry...some continued to look local, while others like myself did whatever necessary to take care of their family.

You seem to think if someone mentions two seperate instances in their life that they are building a story and overwritting their previous one...I mentioned my epilepsy (actually diagnosed as a "stress related seizure disorder") in another note but not in the others...was that my attempt to make it more "pathetic" as you call it...or how about my collecting aluminum cans when I was in highschool...another attempt to make it even more "pathetic" or simply another anecdote that I was able to recall from my past, and don't forget that I also reference that I'm in recovery from a blood clot in my leg that broke off into my lungs from a martial arts accident...obviously another made up story to make things more pathetic in an attempt to woo your favor?

It's really a shame you have such a chip on your shoulder and hold such resentment against...well..me for some reason.  It's almost like you think you know me and I'm attacking you personally.

To all others besides Chuck...take a read at some of my suggestions as they may help you get some traction behind your savings.  To Chuck, please ignore all my "made up pathetic stories" as they are obvioulsy all attempts to win your pity...lol.

Stu,

Luck is all that seperates the 'club' from the nonclub

Disagree - while luck does play a part in it, as Calving Coolidge put it, persistance and determination alone are omnipotent.  The slogan "Press On" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Shawn, your wife could have easily found someone else to occupy her attention while you were gone  

Wow...great moral compass you have there...

Still going to be president of the club?

I've already referenced this "club" as it was called as a kind of "joke" that was made up by someone else...my crime in your eyes as I see it being fortunate, blessed, and determined enough to press on in the face of adversity to achieve my goals, live well within my means, and provide for my family as a good husband/father should, to accomodate his families needs without his wife having to work so that, heaven forbid, should things get REALLY tight, her ability to work acts as a cushion instead of a reliant while making ends meet.

Just thinking...is it just me or is there real bitterness about some people here.  My heavens...you try to lend a hand in sincerity and get the damn thing bitten off.

Lending a hand usually means all the fingers are out not just one.....  And I didn't say it was me personally, just that it does happen and yes you could easily be paying half of what you make to your wife... kind of makes it hard to get by....    The point I was making, that obviously went way over your head is that for millions of americans hard work and perseverence doesn't go very far at all anymore.  You can work your butt off at any job, but if they hire from outside every time and outsource your job repeatedly its not going to amount to much is it?...   Sure why not spend another 10 years getting a degree in something else.  Okay sure 30k in student loans later whos to say it won't happen again.  You seem to think that if you sweat a little bit that the sweat fairy is going to come down and bonk you on the head with a golden wand of cash.  In real life most people who work hard never go to school and end up burnt out by 50, penniless and abused by the greedy SOB who shipped the 'labor' overseas and made his millions on the backs of everyone else.

Ask your congress person the same question, crossfire55, especially the democrats who have been in control since 2006. What will you do after January 20th when you no longer have Bush to blame for all of our problems?

Exactly what Danyel said.

It's called personal responsibility

Danyel.....This problem started long before the Dems took over the Congress. You and others like you are still in denial about what a miserable failure this man has been as President. I feel confident that after Jan.20 we will see an improvement. After all, things couln't get any worse, and yes, I do blame Bush because he was the man in charge. I hope you will give the Dems credit where credit is due once they are finally able to do something. For now, you can keep blaming them for this mess.

Danyel, dems did not have control of congress.  It was 49 to 49 (with two independents who most of the time did side with the dems, but not always,) in the senate, and while they did have more dems in the house neither the house or the senate had the votes for an override of a veto.  So that dog don't bark.  And I by the way am a Republican.  But facts are facts.

Corssfire no doubt ush has been a failure, but so has just about every other "leader" in this country...there is a whole pie of @!$%#blame to go around not just one piece

I second your comment, Danyei.

Let's face it.  Republicans only believe lies that they create.
We need to stop trying to convince them of the truth and
just get to work fixing all of the problems they've created
and will NEVER admit to.

Take care of yourself , That is your job not the governments

Welfare for the auto industry is not the answer!  Just give the tax payer some of that free money!!!   Then maybe the average Joe can afford a new car or truck.  This will also help the UAW gravy train.  Only at the UAW can you work for 30 dollar an hour job with some the greatest benefit packages in the world.  While the rest of us are barely getting by they want us to feel their PAIN?!?!?  

The only people  that have better retirement than the UAW are called POLITICIANS. 

Sad but true.  Ross Perot was right.

I agree with crossfire. Bush is an oilman also,  so why do you think oil prices went so high?  He was incouraging it.  He made MILLIONS while they were up. I would not doubt it if he has stock in  The Big Three.       I'm sorry people, but  I think We the REAL people, would be a lot better off if The Unions were abolished, and the only way to that is to let the Co.go under.  What most people don't seem to get, is, if they are so BIG, why are they in so much trouble?

Ask your "free traders" like Bill Clinton and Lindsey Graham.  Millions upon millions of middle class American jobs have been outsourced to cheap overseas labor.  At first those who lost they jobs could find work, normally at half their previous wages but it did keep them from showing up on the unemployment rolls.  But with less money they curtailed shopping, no new cars for them.  Then the Wal-Mart jobs ran out and the unemployment numbers started climbing, unemployed people don't buy new cars either.  But wait, it's free trade, all these abandoned American jobs are supposed to make the folks in China, Pakistan, India, Mexico wherever rich and consumers.  Well, how many American manufactured cars has GM sold in Pakistan?  How many of those Chinese workers have you seen in your local J.C. Penney?  Crossfire is correct, this is a problem that started a long time ago,  it started before Bush, (recall NAFTA and the Chinese Free Trade Agreement, both by Clinton?) but no one cared because they could buy a shirt for a buck less.  Now, we're seeing the price of abandoning the American middle class worker for a buck, where the American worker returned his wages to his community, the wages paid to the worker in India don't come back.  He's not paying your taxes, providing your local police and fire protection, building your schools, eating in your community diners.   Nope, every time an American job is outsourced another American consumer is eliminated.  GM isn't shutting down plants because it's out of money, it's shutting down plants because there aren't enough working middle class Americans feeling secure enough in their jobs to purchase the cars they're making. 

We're all linked, the unions failed to stand up for workers as their jobs were outsourced.  They failed to support Circuit City employees as the company laid off all it's full time employees so it could hire them back at cheaper wages or replace them with cheaper help.  I can't recall a single UAW ad encouraging their members, or the public, to buy American made goods.  So, as the textile workers lost their jobs, they couldn't buy cars.  As the back office white collar and IT workers saw their jobs go to India, they stopped buying cars.  They curtail purchasing goods and services, causing more people to lose their jobs, who don't buy cars.  All those people stop going out to eat, the cook and waitress lost their jobs, and don't buy cars.   Cars, houses, just the top of the food chain, and now outsourcing has eaten their consumers.    So, all you Harvard and Yale boys who make these decisions to continue to abandon American workers, I say, sell your product over in China and Pakistan, sell it to the people you are paying to manufacture it, because now that you've sold us out we can't afford your product any more.  But then, at a buck an hour, neither can they, now can they?

Buy American made when you can.  If you don't see American made, ask the store where you can get an American made version.  Enough requests, people walking out the door, will cause stores to begin searching for and buying American made goods, as long as they see a market and a potential for profit.   When you call customer service or support, ask where the person is located, if not in America demand to be transferred to an American.  Look folks, we have to stop selling each other out for a buck, this economic problem can't be solved from the top down it has to come from the bottom up, American jobs creating American consumers of American goods and services.  Take a second, look at the label, buy American, support Americans.  That Chinese worker isn't contributing to your community, your neighbor is, and it's his job at stake, it's your job at stake.  Think about it.

Crossfire - you are exactly right, this problem did start long before the Dems took over the Congress.  Does anyone remember December 8, 1993?  Let me remind you,  that was the day BILL CLINTON  signed the NAFTA agreement.   And THAT is when our jobs started going to other countries! 

D.Reinert

VERY good. Very good indeed. I was going to post just about the same thing when i came across your post.

People need to do some research and really find out what happened. clinton caused a lot of the problems now because of NAFTA and free trade with china and other countries.

clinton was loved because things were good during his time. Whatever people. Look at what he did. reduced the military by 1000's for one. THAT alone gave him a false positive in his numbers. Get the facts people.

You may want to google:

• Bush NAFTA
• China NAFTA
• Reagan NAFTA

Quietly but systematically, the Bush Administration is advancing the plan to build a huge NAFTA Super Highway, four football-fields-wide, through the heart of the U.S. along Interstate 35, from the Mexican border at Laredo, Tex., to the Canadian border north of Duluth, Minn.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=15497

As well as:

Bush's administration, along with the Progressive Conservative Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, spearheaded the negotiations of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), which would eliminate the majority of tariffs on products traded among the United States, Canada, and Mexico, to encourage trade amongst the countries.^[52] The treaty also restricts patents, copyrights, and trademarks, and outlines the removal of investment restrictions among the three countries.^[52]

The agreement came under heavy scrutiny amongst mainly Democrats, who charged that NAFTA resulted in a loss of US jobs.^[10] NAFTA also contained no provisions for labor rights;^[53] according to the Bush administration, the trade agreement would generate economic resources necessary to enable Mexico's government to overcome problems of funding and enforcement of its labor laws.^[53] Bush needed a renewal of negotiating authority to move forward with the NAFTA trade talks. Such authority would enable the president to negotiate a trade accord that would be submitted to Congress for a vote, thereby avoiding a situation in which the president would be required to renegotiate with trading partners those parts of an agreement that Congress wished to change.^[53] While initial signing was possible during his term, negotiations made slow, but steady, progress. President Clinton would go on to make the passage of NAFTA a priority for his administration, despite its conservative and Republican roots — with the addition of two side agreements — to achieve its passage in 1993.^[54]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush

As well as:

Proposed concept behind NAFTA in 1979 Reagan himself was a dreamer, capable of imagining a world without trade barriers. In announcing his presidential candidacy in Nov. 1979, he had proposed a “North American accord” in which commerce & people would move freely across the borders of Canada & Mexico. This idea, largely overlooked or dismissed as a campaign gimmick in the US, rankled nationalist sensibilities in the neighboring nations. But Reagan was serious in his proposal. Though he traveled only once outside the North American continent during his first 57 years, he was neither insular nor isolationist. California has windows to the world in Asia, and Reagan thought of the US as a Pacific power as well as an Atlantic one. He also had a Californian’s consciousness of Mexico and an actor’s appreciation of Canadians, who are well-represented in the film community. The dream of a North American accord would drive the successful pursuit of a US-Canadian free trade agreement and a future-oriented “framework” trade agreement with Mexico

http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Ronald_Reagan_Free_Trade.htm

Some of you may want to consider this is not a DEMOCRAT/REPUBLICAN thing. It is an AMERICAN issue and all politicians are in BED TOGETHER!

D Reinert you are exactly right.  NAFTA caused a lot of the problems.  You are also right when you say it was so we could "save a buck".  We did this to outselves.  We wanted the high salaries but wanted to buy as cheaply as possible even if that ment buying from Mexico or China.  We did not care as long as it was cheap.  Unless of course it starts to cut into our salary!

D. Reinert

Dell Computers moved it's customer service abroad and has gotten so many complaints that they have now created a new option for those who want an American CSR...they are charging an annual subscription to have an American CSR!   WTF!  They should be required to provide that service for free.  No Dell computers for me! 

All you Clinton haters,

Clinton supported NAFTA wholeheartedly his party did not 2/3 in Congress failed to support the legislation it was a Republican premise first sought under Reagan as a way to open more markets and kill unions. It was signed in December  1992 by GW Bush, Brian Mulroney of Canada and Mexico's Carlos Salinas de Gortari pending legislative approval. We already had a free trade agreement with Canada since 1989. The people who fought hardest against it were congressional democrats and organized labor. Clinton bucked his party to side with Republicans to narrowly pass NAFTA. This had been being worked on through two Republican Administrations and signed by GWB. It remains to be seen its final effect we only have free trade with 14 countries with Mexico, Canada and Australia being by far the largest I believe the next largest is Guatemala almost all free trade agreements came at the initiation of Republican administrations.

JKHayes

  Now he wants the workforce in the U.S. to be governed by the Japanese, Korean, and Germans? terrific!! What about asking them to come up in standards not lower ours??? I know not popular right now, but what a bunch of s...! Haven't heard him ask Wall St. to take the pay that others take, they take ALL they can get, and mine too, apparently. Enough!! This whole thing has pitted Main against Wall and he walks off scott-free. No Paulson, no more money for Wall St. without BIG restrictions!!!

You know when problems pile on problems without solutions,then it has a trickle down effect. NAFTA was a big mistake, and now we are paying the price. Both sides no matter who was in charge, will disagree with decisions made, whether democrat of republican.

It would give the automakers three months to come up with restructuring plans to become viable companies.

If they fail to produce a plan by March 31, the automakers will be required to repay the loans, which they would find very difficult.  What happens to when they fail to produce a plan, if they do not have the money now what makes us think they will have the money then to repay back?

Why is it these morons from the right want to blame Democrats every time someone mentions what a sorryaz Bush is? They are like them little gremlins in the movies mentioning Bush and his sorry administration is like throwing water on them. They rush out of their holes and start spouting off about democrats being in control for two years when the only control they had in the Senate was who sat where. Get a pair. If Obama is a bad president I for one will be all over him like I am on Bush. You clowns cannot take it. Either grow a pair and fess up to what has happened or buy some skirts and lipstick.

D.Reinert  -  correct in the cause, effects and results.
However, I don't care what  f*%^ing Politicial Party some Lawyer turned Professional Politician belongs to. 

They are Lawyers who became Professional Politicians for what, alturistic reasons.  NOT.

My comment is that what needs to be done to repair the immediate problem(s).  Is the Abolishment of NAFTA, CAFTA, AAFTA, SAAFTA, and tell the WTO go to Hades.

Bring back all of the previous outsourced jobs and prevent further outsourcing.

 
No more Corporate Lobbists in Washington D.C., make Lobbying Illegal.

I know how to fix the long term problems; however, since some of them represent a significant change to government they cannot be uttered, written, nor stated under penalty of H.R. 1955.

D. Reinhardt, great post, however I think to clintons credit the harm of the bill didn't really rear its ugly head until a few years later.  It has now become what I personally feel as the root cause of this mess.  The good paying jobs with benefits are long gone, all that are left now is $9/hr part time no benefit jobs that are crippling our country.  True they might allow you to buy some food, but not much more than that.  Meanwhile china/india gouge us, also the CEOs at the top gouge us and blow it all on luxury cars (not american) or luxury houses (rarely american).  The housing mess is entwined completely with the outsourcing and trampling of american jobs.  Foreclosures get all the press lately, but how many millions more right now are still paying their mortgage, just not paying anything else.   How many are working far below their means and capacity because some greedy SOB decided that a phony sounding indian could provide 'support' for 1/10th the price.  Of course they also provide 1/10th the service but hey thats a new fur coat for the CEO's mistress. 

Wanda, even if you pay more you are never reaching a true dell agent.  They hire cheap call centers here in utah and other places that provide the support, oh and they get fired if they don't offer you stuff on the support calls too.  $11/hr no benefits.   God bless america.

"Bend Over Here It Comes Again - BOHICA" (pronounced Bo Hee Caa).

Wait till after March 2009, when they ask for the 150 Billion USD to Implement the Restructuring Plans.

Which is why a CHaper 11 BK is a real solution

Excuse me but Congress (as in both parties) meddling in the Free Market with B.S. trade policies ,corporate welfare for companies to ship jobs out in the dead of night and corporations moving plants down south (as in Mexico)and not paying a decent wage have all contributed to the current mess (including millions here illegally to fight for what jobs remain).Make that all sides don't want to tackle the issues and I'll agree.

As Bush's announcement just revealed, after March 31, Chapter 11 may be the only route anyway.  The loan goes to GM and Chrysler, but the essence of success is placed more on the backs of the UAW, suppliers, dealers and bondholders.  It's just a "legal"? form of bribery where government doesn't belong.  A Chapter 11 now will get those forced concessions through the bankruptcy trustee and court.  Congress creates laws to deal with these subjects, but then whisks them away to give preferential treatment to big money.  Hooray for the USA....

The probable reason for this small bailout is the language of the deal which will force the hands of all involved.  This way with money in there hands no new deal can be struck until March 31st, this way the Dems in the house and senate who couldn't even muster there people to show up for a vote can't undue what has just been done, Bankruptcy will happen now, starting in Feb you will see alot of crying by the UAW who refused to assist there own members keep there jobs.

Know the really sorry part of that, it's all those other people who are unemployed or earn a fraction of the UAW's wages, those who can't even imagine what it must be like to have such luxurious benefits, that now have to pay for them.  Yep, the government takes a piece out of your pittiful unemployment check so it can pay for UAW workers to sit at home.  Feels great, doesn't it?  Write your congressman and senators, you can go right to their official web sites, click on the button to contact them, and send them a message letting them know how thrilled you are to be able to be a part of the automotive bailout even though you couldn't afford your mortgage payment this month.  They need to know. 

D.Renert - exactly. People making $15/hr are now subsidizing UAW workers making much more.

Is welfare for the auto industry the answer??? NO! 

docroc,  but, yet, waaay more than they deserve.

It may or may not -- certainly in the context of the enormous bailout of sleezy, scumbag banks and their rapacious CEOs, a bailout of the automakers' WORKERS does make sense.

My point, however, was not about whether it's justified, but whether the proposed solution will be any use at all.  I say "no." 

What is clear about the financial meltdown is that all parties and members of both political parties share a few unfortunate habits of thought, which are not conducive to solving any of these problems.  Some of these are:

1. Do whatever is necessary to SEEM sincere to the public

2. Do SOMETHING - anything - to get the pain to stop and to make everything go back to the way it was before.  Don't try to improve anything - there's no time.

3. Don't ask questions about effectiveness - just do something!

Clearly, when GM is eating through $5B per month all by itself, a total package of $17B for both GM and Chysler won't do anything except prolong the time until bankruptcy.  And to expect them to redesign themselves in a few short months and be profitable at the end of it is ridiculous.

This kind of muddy thinking has been typical of everything done since the broader public noticed the financial crisis.

You should run for congress!

I would vote for you docroc. You should e-mail that statement to your Congressman. And tell him you have a lot of voters to back you up.

Where do you have to drive that you consume 400 dollars worth of gas a week? The automakers would not of made large trucks if the public didn't make a large demand for them. Gm is not the only company to make large trucks Ford, Dodge, and Toyota make them also. Even Honda makes a funny looking truck.

"caused bankrupsy for people who ownes them". They were never forced to but those vehicles. There are lots of choices for consumers on what vehicle they want to buy. You have made one poor argument there

Don, I'll bet if the democrats had gotten their bill through, you would have been cheering how great they are and did what they needed to do.  Now, Bush steps in and is doing,as he said, essentially the same as the congress bill.

Trying to cut Bush down for what he does.....Obama would be doing the same thing.

I strongly disagree with the President's decision. The Democrats could have gotten a bill through if they had been willing to work in a bipartisan fashion and if they had been willing to confront the UAW. The UAW knew that the White House wasn't about to let the automobile industry go under, so they held out for the best Christmas present they'll ever get. Now we all know that Santa is a Republican!

C'Mon, get serious, the democrats are owned by the UAW and other unions.  What do you think the UAW was holding out for, refusing to make concessions, they know come the end of January their bought and paid for puppets will bow to their will anyway. 

Who will we have to blame all the worlds problems on when Bush is gone? It's getting old...

Check the records.  The UAW has donated more money to the Republican party than they have the Democrats.

Regardless, our representatives, on both sides of the isle, are beholden to big corporations... not us.

Oil Company Profits

The Investment U e-Letter: Issue # 653
March 23, 2007

Oil Company Profits: Just Who Is Gouging Whom?
by Alexander Green, Investment Director, The Oxford Club

The new speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, calls oil company profits "obscene.
And at first blush, many would agree. Over the past 12 months, for example, ExxonMobil has made pre-tax profits of $164 billion on sales of $369.5 billion. That's a lot.
But are big oil company profits bad?

Hardly. Companies exist to maximize profits. Profits are what keep workers employed. They keep companies innovating, creating new products and services. They keep the economy humming and the country strong. And they allow you and I to invest and secure our financial future.

Even the school teacher who plunks some of her retirement account in an S&P 500 Index fund benefits from Exxon's rising share price - which is a direct result of Exxon's rising profits.

Many will argue that there is nothing wrong with an oil company's profits, per se. It's just that Exxon is gouging us at the pump. They're making too much.

But are they? After all, Exxon can't dictate gasoline prices. Markets determine the price of oil. It's supply and demand that sets the price at the pump.

Oil Companies, Profits, and the Courts

Some Americans are skeptical on this point, I know. So I direct them to last year's Supreme Court decision. The court ruled unanimously that oil companies have not been colluding to set prices.

Oil prices are high today because the economies of huge nations like China and India are developing rapidly. More oil is being demanded in the world market and there are few new sources of supply.

Hurricane Katrina destroyed a lot of oil processing capacity around the Gulf of Mexico too, so there has been less oil being processed. When less oil is supplied, gasoline prices rise.

What does the average oil company make today on the sale of a gallon of gas? Ten cents.

The federal tax on gasoline, on the other hand, is nearly twice that. Then there's state gasoline taxes. (If you live in New York, for example, you're paying 68 cents a gallon in taxes.)

If Exxon is gouging us at ten cents a gallon, what exactly is the federal government doing to us at 18.4 cents a gallon?

Who Is Gouging Whom?

After all, Exxon has to compete with other oil companies both here and abroad. It has to spend billions on exploration, billions more on development, and further billions on refining and transportation.

As a result, it's hardly making money hand over fist. Earnings at Exxon rose 9% last year but fell 4% in the fourth quarter, underscoring the challenges of rising costs and lower commodity prices.

And Exxon's profit margins are only 10.7%. Profit margins at Microsoft, on the other hand, are 26%. Perhaps we should pass a windfall profits tax on software companies.

Because that's what Big Oil's opponents really want: a bigger federal gasoline tax. Why? To fund the search for alternative sources of energy, such as ethanol and nanotechnology.

That's a fine sentiment. But will throwing around tens of billions of dollars in federal research grants really create alternative energy sources? If that were the case, shouldn't Uncle Sam give grants to:

Dell… to create more powerful computers?
Boeing… to build faster aircraft?
McDonalds… to make low-fat French fries that taste good?

for good grief, I looked at your post and said that can't be correct and it isn't. Automakers as a whole, including suppliers and dealers have given more to republicans than democrats. HOWEVER, Democrats have looked to the United Auto Workers for support. Since 2000, the union has given $12.5 million to Democrats compared with only $94,540 to Republicans.

Also, Friday, December 12, 2008 Daniel Howes: Commentary

GOP Senators to UAW: It's payback time

UAW failed repeatedly to organize the foreign-owned auto plants proliferating down South, even now.

Their political action committee pumped millions -- $1,918,450 this election cycle alone, to be exact -- into the congressional campaigns of Democrats and only $12,500 into Republicans, according to opensecrets.org. In their 1999 contract, union workers won Election Day off and used it to back their (generally Democratic) candidates, a source of recurring irritation among the southern GOP stalwarts.

They ignored the Republicans, even auto state Republicans, who represent the so-called "New American Manufacturers" in places such as Kentucky, Tennessee and Alabama.

"New American Manufacturers" in places such as Kentucky, Tennessee and Alabama.

Why do people feel they need to make creative names in stead of calling a spade a spade?

Patriot act-- You not patriotic if you don't agree to give up your freedoms

New American manufacturers-- Foreign owned manufacturers

I've seen on newsvine where people don't like foreign companies like Toyota coming into US and building factories that employ Americans because the profits go back overseas. But the same people don't like jobs being outsourced outside the country (even though profits would be coming back to US).

This is basically trying to have it both ways. The only way to do that is go to a strict protectionism or isolationism style with the United states and not do business with any other countries. No way this can work. It's a global economy.

darrell-473614

I've seen on newsvine where people don't like foreign companies like Toyota coming into US and building factories that employ Americans because the profits go back overseas. But the same people don't like jobs being outsourced outside the country (even though profits would be coming back to US).

This is basically trying to have it both ways. The only way to do that is go to a strict protectionism or isolationism style with the United states and not do business with any other countries. No way this can work. It's a global economy.

The stupidity is that the "Foreign" Automakers are more "American" than the "American" Automakers.

The profits from the sales of the "Foreign" Automakers stay with the Foreign Automaker US Affliates.  And is reinvested in the US.  Example:  Honda USA profits to built new Honda USA Plant/Factory at Indiana.  Toyota USA sales profits used to fund new plant at Mississippi.  The tragedy is that they learned this in US Business School and from what W.E. Deming indicated in his 14 Points.

The US Corporations sales profits and previous US Bailouts went to build at Toluca, Mexico and Machau, China.  This is why Congress was concerned during recent Testimony that US Bailout Money would be used this way again.

"Congress wonders if US Bailout will be spent in US" - news article MSN, "All American Bailout".

The motives of the "Foreign" Automakers and the "American" Automakers are completely different also.

1.  Obese 3 + Lobbists + Politicians = NAFTA, CAFTA, AFTA.  Result Cheap Labor.  Result Outsourcing to Mexico, Canada, China, South America.  Result no work for UAW.  Result former workers cannot afford what they previously assembled.

2.  Obese 3 + Lobbists + Politicians + DOT = Change of DOT Safety Standards to prevent foreign car invasion.  Result Japanese, Europeans build plants in US that conform or exceed DOT Safety Standards. 

Obese 3 cannot import their own foreign made vehicles into the US because they adhere to the stricter International TUV Safety Standards (safer by survivability by category) and not the DOT Safety Standards.  The Japanese, Europeans and other international markets require the stricter TUV Safety Standards that the "made in mexico/canada" US only model Obese 3 cannot adhere to, therefore requiring special (tariffs) waivers, neither can they meet the fuel economy Standards required by the Greens Party (Internationally), resulting in the requirement of another special (tarrif) waiver (based on US 1970s Oil Crisis Standards).

3.  At the end of WWII, under the MacArthur Plan Japan was rebuilt after the numerous firebombings of civilian targets by B-29s using white phosphous incindiary bombs declared illegal by the Hague and Geneva Conventions as "Chemical Weapons" after Dresden (B-17s).  The MacArthur Plan enabled the survivors to live and not die from starvation.  These survivors are now old, and in the positions of power as major CEOs of Japanese Corporations and are giving back to the US for saving their lives under the MacArthur Plan.  This is inspite of the large costs associated with investing in the US and using the profits to reinvest in Kentucky, Alabama, Tennesse, Missouri, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, California, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, Virginia, Georgia, Ohio, South Carolina, Indiana (2008), etc. that either are assembling cars or manufacturing parts in the USA employing American Citizens in the USA for their ("Foreign") Real American Auto Industry (Toyota USA, Honda USA, Nissan USA, Hyundai USA).  It is anticipated that the current "corporate samurai" will be replaced upon death with those that are similiar to the US Corporate Board Member Model, who have stated that it is their intent to close all US investments and reopen in China, due to the anti Asian sentiments in the US, as a matter of honor.  This is also the case with the Koreans at Alabama.  See movie, Graves of the Fireflies (Japan WWII), Tae Guk Gi (Korea War).

Considered as a "hand up", work.  Not a "hand out" welfare. 

You really thought the price of gasoline was coming down permanently?

Hey JH, you think there are some of those people out there?  My neighbor wants to sell his SUV, he could use a few of those names? 

D.Reinert

I was replying to PDC's comment.  I don't catch your drift in your questions to me.

It's Christmas time, 'Tis better to give than receive....

The current taxpayers aren't giving them money.  How can the government give taxpayer money it doesn't have?  We, the people are borrowing money to loan money to debtors that apparently can't really afford the loan, just like the situation that caused the home loan fiasco...

Revenant

I feel your pain.  My daughter worked as an Administrative Assistant for a company for six years.  They closed the plant in October and moved the lines to Mexico.  She found another job as a temp to hire making $5 less per hour with a company that is a supplier for Saturn.  Now Saturn is shutting down until February 9, so she will be out of work for about 6 weeks.  We live in a small town and you can count on one hand the number of jobs available in good economic times.  My daughter is divorced and is raising a child on her own and two years ago bought her own house.  I'm afraid that these tough economic times will totally undermine all her achievements over the last few years.

i know i just dont get why the bailout money wasnt given to the american citizens on the condition it was spent on debt so you could choose to put it towards your car payment, your credit card or your mortgage, or if you were lucky enough not to have any debt so just spend it, basically it would have been win/win because the citizens would have had their debts paid down and the economy would have had a huge boost from the spending or repayment of debt.

$75,000 check?

You need to recalculate that.

The 18 Billion USD Bailout only pays for a Restructuring Plan due March 2009.

To Implement the Restructuring Plan is according to Congressional Testimony 150 Billion USD.

Therefore 18 Billion USD + 150 Billion USD = 168 Billion USD =  divided by US Tax Payers = $ per check.

Vinny, I'm not an advocate of the governemnt loan either.  But you said "There is NO way they can become viable by end of March."  There is nothing in the government plan that requires them "to become viable by the end of March."  They must submit a viability plan by the end of March which will show how they will become viable in the future to survive.  It's the same kind of plan requirement that exists for a Chapter 11 (or wage earner Chapter 13 plan) that determines belief of viability to approve a Chapter 11 or Chapter 13 bankruptcy.  Otherwise it's liquidation (Chapter 7).

From what I would expect, no viability plan after this loan before March 31 would make a Chapter 7 bankruptcy more likely.  But even secured loans in a Chapter 7 still get assets repossessed or sold to repay debt.  There would still appear to be at least some recovery of loan proceeds.

Since no one read the Bailout Bill.

Can you say ILLEGAL by the Laws Governing the US Department of Treasury.

page 34.
23 (b) LIMITATION.—Except to provide bridge financing
24 or to implement a restructuring plan pursuant to this Act,
25 no funds from the United States Treasury may be used

page 35.
1 for the purpose of assisting an eligible automobile manu
2 facturer to achieve financial viability or otherwise to avoid
3 bankruptcy.

In reality, after reading the terms of the plans as released by the Treasury Dept, Feb 17 is the deadline to submit the viability plan.  Treasury has to certify acceptance as a valid viability plan by the end of March.

I like the GMC one I have too!

Ok , then a Ford Model A is great cool and hip.

Just bought a 2007 Dodge Ram ThunderRoad Quad Cab last week...absolutely LOVE IT!!!

And while I'm only averaging 17.2 MPG, that's not too bad, considering my SUV averaged 20 and didn't provide me the ability to haul...anything.

Oh, and confirmed via the VIN that it was also manufactured in the US (St. Louis if I remember correctly).

I'll bet it has overseas parts. And a Mitzubichi engine. What do you think?

You know Bevos, you are right that some parts of the HEMI engine may be built in different countries..but you have to decide if you are going to help some or not at all.  Following that mentality you never be able to buy anything...because I'm sure that the plastic that surrounds a fully American product is made somewhere else...or the staple's that hold the box together...or the glue that is used to hold the sticker on the box.

I mean, the piece of paper that carried the instructions for my American Made ShopVac is probably created somewhere else in the world as well, but I wouldn't scrap the whole of the unit because a piece or part is made elsewhere...we don't make EVERYTHING but what we do still do, I invest in whenever possible.

yeah I preffer my Ford has been a great truck so far!

Shawn -  Bravo!  I too am proud to be an American and will support my country at every opportunity!

PS.  I love my GMC Envoy and GMC truck.  I will never own a foreign made Toyota, Honda or any other piece of crap.  NEVER!

WHAT!!! Are you guys paid bloggers..I would think so...These trucks and cars are assembled here the parts are not manufactured here..Get a life and speak the truth..The BIG 3 should have had to file for bankruptcy restructuring, just like the rest of us would...

not over it

Shawn -  Bravo!  I too am proud to be an American and will support my country at every opportunity!

PS.  I love my GMC Envoy and GMC truck.  I will never own a foreign made Toyota, Honda or any other piece of crap.  NEVER!

My guess is that you have not visited the Dealership Parts Department and read the Made In Label:

Roscoe-665493 - I've been in GM Parts for 20 plus and first it was mostly "made in USA" then alot of stuff started to say "made in Canada", not so awful. But then its starts with "made in mexico", then "made in indonesia"...now the bulk of what I handle (and its conciderable) says, yep, you guessed it, "made in china".

This makes me sick to my stomach...

The people in charge of the corporations, the government, they could give a s&*T about our jobs, they're only concern is their bottom line, their pockets.

We're doomed
#12 - Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:54 AM HST

You just stated your support of the noodle eating Chinese guy getting a dollar a day.  Not Americans:

BurnInHell - Sorry but Japanese cars have been blowing away American made for years and years... how come the American companies cannot come up with any innovative designs or decent quality cars?  Check out how many recalls there are for serious defects between the Japanese and American car companies, you may be surprised.

And as far as "imports build factories here where the workers get paid Wal Mart wages" that would be a lie.  I should now since I worked for Honda several years ago and was paid quite well.  Not to mention Japanese workers rarely worry about being laid off (That is just Japanese culture... not to screw over the worker).

For those of you who want to know why Japanese cars are generally of better quality read on...

I know for a fact why Japanese cars have a better quality then American car companies.  I have worked in the auto industry for 10 years as a consultant to both American and Japanese auto makers.  I am sure there are several factors, but the number one reason why has to do with something known as "fault tolerance".  Every part of every car has to be within so many millimeters of the original design.  For American car companies the standard is .7mm.  Doesn't seem like much... the Japanese have a fault tolerance of 0.5mm.  In fact when they first built factories in the USA the went to the USA suppliers and asked for a fault tolerance of 0.5mm and were laughed at.  That's when the Japanese brought their suppliers from Japan to the USA and built smaller factories to supply the larger one, because the USA factories couldn't insure that their parts would meet the high standards required.

So I vote no for the bailout...

#15.1 - Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:46 AM HST

 What you are saying is that you go to Walmart because Walmart is a US Corporation.  Why do you think that the US Military cannot "Buy US Only Products, Goods and Services from GM, Ford, Chrysler" because they stopped being "American" "US Only" when they lobbied for NAFTA, CAFTA, AFTA, SAFTA, etc. and became Foreign and US in name only (incorporated at Delaware) per GAO.

These trucks and cars are assembled here the parts are not manufactured here.

OK so here are your options:

1. American car company assembling cars in America with parts from across the globe
2. American car company assembling cars abroad with parts from across the globe
3. Foreign car company assembling cars in America with parts from across the globe
4. Foreign car company assembling cars abroad with parts from across the globe

While it's not a "perfect option", it sounds like the closest "bang for the buck" is option 1 if you want to provide as much support for own country.

Hence, my decision to buy two American car company cars, both of which validated as assembled in the US.

So while it's not a perfect world, I'm doing as much as possible to support our American workers...

david you continue to try to make people believe that it is the same or even better to buy "foreign".  I will concede that there are some foreign vehicles assembled in America and I will concede that some parts are even made in America but the fact remains that there are far more vehicles made by GM Chrysler and Ford made here in America.  They assemble more her.  They make more parts here and the American auto industry has a direct affect on 1 out of 10 Americans.  So you can quit with your futile argument now.  At the end of the arguement the fact remains that buying from Ford GM and Chrysler benefits America MORE that buying Honda or Toyota.

"Consider american autos" is good; I think most people do.  But after consideration, if the consumer gets more bang for their buck with a foreign made car, or an american car with foreign made parts, they "saved".  That's what the middle class does.

Imagine what the cost of an american made Big 3 auto would be right now if the Big 3 used totally american made parts in heir vehicles.  The wages, et.al. of a Big 3 UAW worker would only be part of the problem.

A totally Made in America goal is an interesting concept, but until the GDP takes a back seat to "economic status" that appears to solely drive the economy, there will never be a totally made in America product again.

As part of my point, think about it.  The government issues the quarterly report...GDP has shrunk because consumers can no longer afford to spend....stock market reacts negatively...credit markets contract....consumer confidence drops....consumer sales go down...businesses lose money....layoffs begin....personal income is lost....mortgages, car loans and credit card debt doesn't get paid....financial markets in turmoil...recession....maybe depression.

But, the GDP has to grow or everyone suffers.

What's wrong with striving for a stable GDP?

Oops...my bad.....investors don't make money.

JH I don't think you got my post.I get the fact that there are many sources for foreign transplant and domestic autos parts.What I don't get is the outright contempt for our manufacturing abilities.We've almost given them all away thanks to the NAFTA and "outsourcing" ripoffs.These corrupted the natural process of transition and replaced it with the "Giant Sucking Sound" H. Ross Perot talked about.And no one seems to care!They seem to think we deserve it because (OH My God!) some industries have unions and we can't have that.So thank God W. did something because if the Big 3 fall it's over for American Manufacturing.

People can argue all they want; however, the actual numbers are:

Fault Tolerance = Quality, as stated by W.E. Deming.

US Only Specification (GM, Ford, Chrysler) Fault Tolerance = .7mm

International Specification (GM Opel, Ford AG, Chrysler AG, Mercedes Benz, BMW, VW, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, etc.) Fault Tolerance = .5mm with a goal of .4mm

To Fred G. From NC

I apologize for being unclear in my distinction.  I absoluitely agree about seeking to purchase american products (my "consider american autos is good" comment).  But I interpretted the operative word as being "consider".  Hence, one can consider them, but ultimately a decision of which to purchase involves other factors...to the consumer, the "illusion" of saving money is, I think, foremost.  Foreign made has typically been cheaper, although if consideration was quality, the foreign made may not be better.  For the most part, consumers don't have patriotic thoughts when standing in line at Wal Mart, KMart or other establishments.  Unfortuantely, american business and the economy are all about "prosperity", and that boils down to money.  Higher prices do go to a higher GDP, although I don't think that's necessarily good (like inflation, or overvalued goods).  Also, government spending dollars go to the GDP.  Are deficit spending government dollars truly good for the GDP?  Economists seem to think so, but usually only in times of recession.  Yet, when excessive government spending is decreased (brought closer to budget surplus), the US goes into a recession (case in point....end of Clinton Administartion; Bush took over in a recession.  Also, it appears to me if the GDP grows fast (from high prices vs income growth), people's pocket books may be stretched to the point they no longer have money to spend.  I think the cost of oil/gasoline rise this past year into the fall was the real trigger for the economic woes going on now.  How many of those sub-prime mortgages defaulted because worker's incomes that owned those homes became strapped due the doubling of the cost of gasoline to commute back and forth to work?  So, in those types of times, who will buy an auto without considering the cost of gasoline they are forced to pay because of the monopoly on setting the barrel of oil price?

To David-475776:

American autos have increased in quality significantly since Dr. Deming died in 1993, attested by the fact they last much longer.  Deming turned Ford around in the mid 80s to become the most profitable of the Big 3.  But Deming supposedly pointed out Ford's problems to be management related rather than quality related.

Whether foreign car quality today is better or not than american made quality is today is debatable.  No doubt, foreign cars were better quality years ago.  But today, the bottom line is still price within comparable styles, bells and whistles.

people staying home and collecting 95% of their pay, ARE NOT WORKING PEOPLE. they are leeches and parasites.  living off the backs of folks earning and living on one quarter of what they make. get real and  get over that crock of bovine droppings.

"It really upsets me that the Republicans can give billions to banks... "

Once again they are not giging money to banks it's a loan...Banks are and will be able to pay back as they operate today, automaker will not

BILLYBLOG 

They were working people until the economy turned to sh@%. That is a pretty ignorant statement to say.

Seems to me the Democrats in Congress supported and pushed through the Banking rescue measure.    If you're going to assign blame, pay attention to how things happen.

The government "giving one dime to the workers" is called lowering taxes or not raising taxes.  The government gets any money it would "give" to the workers from the workers...the workers would still have to repay what the government gives.

Bush, and the Republicans, "not giving to the workers" is bull.  Taxes were lowered for ALL workers in 2001/2003...the very tax cut package due to expire in 2010 that Obama "will use" to claim he lowers taxes for 95% of working americans.  The 2001/2003 tax cuts were virtually made possible by the Republicans.  Yes, the "rich" also benefitted by the tax cuts.  But for those middle class people that spout about how Bush has "given them nothing", check out what your tax bills would have been since 2001 if they weren't in place compared to what you paid.

Those tax cuts aided to bring the economy out of a recession which had begun at the end of the Clinton administration when Bush took office.  Those tax cuts, I believe, were also a response to the tax increase that the democrat congress forced on Bush Sr.  With those increased tax rates, Clinton enjoyed seeing the rising GDP, which by nature of the growing economy, brought greater and greater revenues to yield the Clinton surpluses at the end of his administration....and also a recession.

Wait a minute it is not only REP in our congress and senate..Obama himself is backing this bailout, maybe you all should re-read the story before you start bashing anyone..

Actually the three US auto maker CEOs are now working for $1 a year.  So yes they have taken a salary cut.

As close an eye as their buddies in the banking industry have gotten??? Loans are fine, but loans by the same terms, please. Is  the Wall St.  bunch taking any cuts???

SURE they are Zap. And they are going to give back the $30Million in bonuses too. When that happens, you will see donkeys flying over your house instead of reindeer. They only offered to work for $1 a yr. IF they get the loan. And even if they do, they still have their bonuses that they gave themselves to live on.  Probably so they could look pittiful and get the loans. Well, they are pittiful. But not because they deserve anything.

Zap,

Surely you jest!

Jay do the financial companies need someone reliable watching them?You know the a-- clowns we gave $700,000,000 to as opposed to the $17 billion we LOANED the Auto makers.

Fred G. from N.C.

Jay do the financial companies need someone reliable watching them?You know the a-- clowns we gave $700,000,000 to as opposed to the $17 billion we LOANED the Auto makers.

Guess who is overseeing both.  Paulson.

Ignore Dan-260821, he is upset (must be UAW).  So easy for everyone to jump on the winners back.  You are correct, you don't hear anything about the first 7 years, you don't hear anything about no other attacts on US soil, the only thing you hear is how good it's going to be on 20 Jan when B.H.O. changes the whole world and everything will be fixed on 21 Jan.  These people don't have a clue as to what is coming.  Get ready for a hard ride, can't wait till the House and Senate change hands and we fix this whole mess one more time.  Oh yeah but they don't talk about how Clinton reaped the benefits of the changes made by the repubs in control, the Dems only take credit, never blame, never any responsibility. 

Thumbs up, Jim.

Believing all the political hype spewed during the lengthy (near 2 year campaigning) made Bush out to be someone he wasn't.  The current economic status runs much deeper than any one man can cause, and if the focus remains on fingerpointing and blame, there will never be a solution.  Obama alone will also solve nothing; even if Obama appoints the greatest minds, they will not control the stock market; which daily appears to be the true economic indicator everyone follows.  The stock market....the largest legalized gambling operation in the world that has the capability to make one person rich while at the same time destroy the lives of many.

Bush does not deserve credit for the lower oil prices. The consumers around the world could no longer afford to pay the high prices so they cut back on consumption by finding other ways to get around and they started developing alternate sources of energy. Opec and speculators drove up the oil prices by using their fear mongering tactics and rumors of supply shortages. As the economy continues to recede consumers will spend less and prices will continue to decline as surplus builds.  I am not a fan of loaning money to the "Big Three" but if it means keeping more people from losing their jobs, then we do what we have to do. If these workers were to lose their jobs, we would still end up paying them anyway in the form of food stamps, and public assistance checks. so pay them now or pay them later. There are many things the Car companies could do to help themselves if they wanted to. But the thing is they have to want to. They could start by lowering the prices on new vehicles by at least 75%. Most of you probably dont remember when you could buy a new car or truck for around $4000. This would allow more people to be able to afford a new vehicle. Result, more sales and reduced inventory. Build only the number of vehicles their dealers can sell. If you can't sell them: don't build them.  Get rid of the UAW totally or refuse to concede to their demands. If they want to strike, Let them. Do like Reagan did when the air traffic controllers walked off the job. There are plenty of people out there who would be willing and glad to take the jobs. Discontinue the building of non-performing models. Again, If you can't sell them, don"t build them. Pay attention to what the consumers wants, then give them a quality product. Restructure the management and pay them no more than what the average assembly line worker gets. As for why Chrysler would want to sell off one of their best selling models, Jeep, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. If you are looking for someone to give you a loan to bail out your business, you have to show why you need it. One of the things they look at is how much your business makes. If you make too much you get turned down. Chrysler unloads Jeep and this shows a reduction in income and they can more easily justify why they should get a loan. 

Jim,

Your towing of the Conservative Republican line is admirable only for your persistence despite the facts. The death of economic controls began with Reagan as well as the loss of the safety net for middle Americans. The trend worsened with Bush I, remember the "read my lips" fiasco and the ignoring of the major downturn which cost him his job.

It wasn't until Clinton forced economic discipline with the tax increase that the economy recovered, leading the US to the longest period of prosperity (and peace). Although there was a minor stock market downturn at the end of the Clinton administration, the economy remained strong with low unemployment (4%) and a budget surplus, which Bush proceeded to plunder.

The failings of the the Bush administration cannot be blamed on the Democrats. Sorry, it doesn't work.  And the recovery during the Clinton years cannot be accorded to the Republicans as well. Although, certainly some Dems and Repubs helped or hurt the economy, most followed the Party lines and the results are history.